The DC Liar wanted me to get e-pissy. Here we go.
I’ve been in and out of this semi-heated conversation on ChrisB’s most righteous blog on the flat tax. Old Dog, Chris and the DC Liar really pushed my buttons with this stuff so everyone seems to be doing their job. ChrisB got me all lit up (apologies to the National) after I suggested that as appealing as any argument for tax reform sounds, the history of these things is they have been put forth by liars (not the DC Liar), thieves, schnooks or incompetent boobs. Consider what I thought to be a decent response to Chris’ question about the flat tax. I said:
“Here's the thing I would caution ChrisB or anyone about...a large part of politics is about winning the argument. I've won a helluva lot of arguments in my time, and there is no proof that I've been right on all or half of them.The art of rhetoric (this does not have to be a pejorative) suggests that in order to persuade someone to do an action that you want them to do, you want to first make that action/thing seem (or sound) possible. Again, this isn't an argument against the flat tax per se but just a call to be wary of arguments you like.A lot of people thought the 16th Amendment would level the economic playing field between rich and poor in America, create a greater, more responsive democracy at the national level...they thought it sounded like it made good sense. It was fair, it sounded like a way to redistribute wealth (when these words sounded better to American ears)...If they put the income tax amendment to a vote today - would we the great grandchildren of the we the people who sort of said it sounded like a good idea happily rally around this tax reform? Are we all ready to stand up and re-ratify it?”
So I thought this was a decent reminder that politics, public debate, even from former presidential hopefuls is about image and winning the argument, support etc…and the better or more equitable an argument sounds, the more suspicious I am of it. I am a pretender at this philosophy bullshit, I know even less about my faith (I usually defer on serious faith questions to my wife, she’s the smart one). But I think I actually have some common sense. This was my common sense response to someone who argues, to solve a complex problem we have to get back to basics, try something simple. All I did was tip my toe in, but Chris (being my brother from another mother) got me revved up. He responded:
“Ed, I hear you. I was persuaded and I'm looking for the counterpoint - still haven't heard one.”
Grrrrrr, I love ChrisB, but Grrrrrrrr!
I’m too damned competitive to be a good Christian.
Now at a certain point, the conversation got so out of hand that Devin and I found we were in agreement on the way the duplicitous fucks that wear the blue ties and call themselves Christians usurp Scripture for the sake of their dastardly political agenda. Yes, things have gotten out of hand when Devin and I are in agreement about such things.
But there were a variety of opinions that flew in from all corners. I kept jumping back in because I was caught up in the frenzy. I forgot my original reservations about the whole subject – I DON’T KNOW SHIT ABOUT THE FLAT TAX. Old Dog sort of invited me in to the whole thing (he’d probably invite Dracula to a Longerburger BasketBall Party too)…he said:
“EdP has told me why he thinks a flat tax is a bad idea, but I can't remember it exactly. So, I'm hoping that he jumps in here very soon.”
Now that I think about it, in the only discussion I remember having with the Old Dog about the flat tax I said something similar to the argument above: ‘If it sounds like a great idea, fair to everyone, I’d be careful that some snaky shit is going on’
Again, not my brightest moment (drawing a big green penis on Bill Garver’s chest at the Metro, that was pretty good). So now I’m knee deep into this great conversation Chris’ instigated we’re talking about economic justice, wealth, meritocracy, the way the world ought to work vs. the way the world should work, the promise of hard work vs the realities of working for a living and trying to retire…all the usual suspects weighed in and put forth some good arguments.
Trendite even played the Paul Tsongas card. (Tsongas by the way, in my spell-check)
So now I’ve been tweaked by some comments and I’m in there swinging away like the dumb ass that I am. We’ve been arguing back and forth about this shit since band practice last week. I thought, ‘I’ll break my 10 minute rule, go back and read Chris’ initial post.’ After a second, somewhat more careful reading I remember what bugged me initially. I quickly forgot it as I threw myself into the argument. This was Chris’ initial presentation of the Forbes flat tax proposal:
“The general notion would be to abolish the IRS as it is and simplify the tax code so that you'd only need to fill out a simple questionaire to do your taxes each year. His proposal is to tax everyone exactly 17% if they make $46,000 or more in a year. I'm struggling to find out what the down side is to this plan. If anyone can enlighten me, I'd appreciate it.”
See what Chris did? Any of the regular readers work on one or both of the Forbes’ campaigns recognize the error here? No? Me neither. It sounds in the paragraph above that Forbes is proposing a tax based on income where everyone who made $46,000 or more a year would pay an INCOME TAX of 17%. If I wasn’t such a dork and didn’t want to dive in and argue this shit on my own terms, I would’ve remembered what I think I knew at some point (probably from the Forbes ’96 failed bid for the R nomination). The Forbes flat tax proposal was not an income tax proposal. It was meant to replace the income tax, it was something like this:
“Under Steve Forbes’ plan for his 1996 and 2000 presidential campaign, income tax would be replaced by a consumption tax. That is, there would be a tax on spending only (income minus savings). A family of four would pay no tax on the first $42,000 dollars spent. Spending above that amount would be taxed at a flat rate of 17% (if the tax is included as part of the tax base) or 20.5% (if the tax is on top of the base), so that a family of four that spends $43,000 dollars would forfeit $205 to the government.”
Most of the readers and bloggers seem to like the wiki, we need some common sources to carry on some of these conversations. I don’t have the haughty nose up in the air attitude toward the wiki – if you want to double check my shit on the Forbes flat tax proposal help yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_taxIf the wiki can be believed (and I see no reason to doubt it on something like this…the wiki’s got to know more about this than all our dumb asses put together) we can all see that whatever the virtues or defects of the flat CONSUMPTION TAX proposal, there’s no way this shit can pay for all the other things govt does including Medicare and Social Security. That’s why when Forbes ran in 2000 and earlier, he put his tax reform proposal in along side of SS reform and radical Medicare reform.
This is not an attack on the initial post or how informed my dear friend ChrisB is. I missed it and argued along with everyone else. Just a reminder that my original warning is a good one. Things are never as simple as 17% on $46,000 (or $43,000) or more per year.
Maddux just duked Furcal with an inside move. I’ll add MadDog (still don’t know why they call him that) to the list of things I don’t hate about the Cubs.
Oh, back to this tax shit. The more I read the wiki, the more I thought, wait, I remember something different re Forbes and his simple flat tax plan. Maybe Steener and others who stick it to the wiki (that just sounds dirty, sorry Steener) are right. I forget when this was said:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/congress/forbes_flat_tax.htmlSo here it’s $36,000 and it is an INCOME TAX – 17%, but only for income after $36,000.
Maddog just got an RBI single, I’ve really made a joke of my ten minute rule for the blogs, but I don’t care. Now I’m having fun.
Maybe Chris’ initial formulation is as good as any of the ones Steve Forbes has put out. Get it? The error wasn’t Chris’. There are five or six different versions of the flat tax proposal but forth by FORBES himself, or his people. So let’s go with what Chris said:
"His proposal is to tax everyone exactly 17% if they make $46,000 or more in a year. I'm struggling to find out what the down side is to this plan. If anyone can enlighten me, I'd appreciate it.”
Simple. How does Forbes or the mysterious people who will replace the IRS (by the way getting rid of the IRS sounds like a good idea – but who are going to collect the taxes? Not to mention the lost job...let’s not forget the entire industry dedicated to dealing with taxes, accountants, lawyers, officers of the court, bank officers Am I defending the IRS, tax attorneys, and H&R Block? Man, I’m crazier than I thought.
Oh, the “simple” I forgot to answer. How does Forbes calculate, or maybe more to the point – define income? Here’s why the tax code became so unwieldy, as the SC Liar (SC Liar, who the hell is that? Steve Spurrier???) – the DC Liar put it, those with greater income have the resources to manipulate the tax code. Apparently with great power comes great responsibility, but with greater income – not so much. If they could do it to create greater deductions under the old scheme, who’s to say they can’t do it to redefine income under the Forbes plan (unless he plans to abolish lawyers at the same time he gets rid of the IRS). But there is shit that is debatable in this portion of my response.
FICA is the FUCKA here. DC Liar was right at the end of Chris’ comment field:
“Only on a blog comment field could a discussion on a tax proposal turn into a culture war with religious overtones.”
Yeah, we started talking about all this other shit (me included, but ChrisB and Old Dog started it…ChrisB bashing the religious right in America, then seeming to paint all Christians with a broad brush, Old Dog defending some of those who call themselves Christian conservatives, and for all the reasons I will go into later, they do not deserve his noble defense on Chris’ blog or anywhere) oh, because we (me is part of that we) are in over our heads and might not be capable of making common sense out of this tax legerdemain, which was part of my initial common sense remarks. We can’t really begin a conversation about tax reform (simple or otherwise) without talking about what is to become of FICA. I raised some questions on Chris’ blog about payroll taxes, but only after I had spewed all this other gobbledeeegookk again, a sure sign that I did not know what I was talking about.
FICA taxes pay for all sorts of things that government needs and shows no signs of not needing now or any time in the near future. FICA taxes begin with dollar one. FICA taxes top out at $90,000 and you can make a whole different set of arguments here – I’ve heard Devin make some good ones in the past. Geez, things are getting goofy when Devin and I are agreeing on more junk.
The point is, the first thing I should’ve said to Chris is what about FICA? What does Forbes do with FICA. Instead the argument dribbled in at the end. By the way, Josh is probably the only other person who will recognize that I have stolen some of the articles in this blog entry from Mike Kinsley (not the guy with the sexy report). He’s a columnist from the Washington Post and I hope nobody else here will claim to be regular readers of the Post. C’mon people, you’re better than that.
You know what, I’m gonna really break my 10 minute rule, go back and read the comments from Chris’ blog just to make sure that no one brought up FICA.
And Chris, if you post a comment here that you still haven’t heard a counterpoint, my head is going to explode.