If you’ve read the Salon.com interview with Camille Paglia (I think she owns the DeKalb pizza place) this entry considers the merits of the last big question she was asked and her response. The interviewer begins the end of the interview with this:
“It seems like religion has never been a bigger issue in American politics, recognized on both sides of the aisle as something that needs to be addressed. Have the Democrats changed the longtime Republican characterization of them as godless?”
This is a horseshit question.
What about religion is at issue in the coming election? CP nails the first portion of her response because she knows that what the questioner really wants to talk about – and really all there is to talk about in this sort of conversation….the perception of religion.
Before I talk about CP’s observations let me say that I don’t think the contemporary tension and perception with respect to religion is as big an issue as it has been in the past. The difference between early Democratic-Republicans and the Federalists on this score was bigger than huge…it was BUGE. Jefferson was the candidate of Satan or worse…Jacobin-style atheism and Adams was so ugly, his supporters thought he must be loved by God.
Uh, just kidding. I think Mr. Adams and Mr. Jefferson, at bottom might’ve had similar believes regarding the here and the hereafter, but the perception gap was what was important. By the way, it ended up not helping Adams that Jefferson was seen by some as Satan’s choice. Maybe we are the great Satan?
We should forget those dead bastards and think about the present. Here’s the beginning of CP’s response:
“Well, as long as the Democrats are perceived as the anti-religion party, we're going to lose the culture wars. That's why Hillary has made such a show of churchgoing and wearing crucifixes -- even while there seems to be little connection between her Christian ideals and her backstage activities as a politician and money raiser. But religion is absolutely central to this country in ways that Europe's secularized intellectuals fail to understand. I'm speaking here as an atheist who studies religion and respects it enormously. In the history of mankind, the benefits that religion has brought to society in shaping behavior and moral choice are overwhelming in comparison to the negatives, which anyone can list -- like religious wars and bigotry. Without religion, we'd have anarchy.”
Her use of Hilary is important because it helps us see that the difference between the D’s and R’s here might not be religion…it is first perception….and secondly there is some reality that goes along with the perception.
What the hell do I mean?
Hilary vs. the R’s shows (in part) why the R’s have been able to control the Congress since 1994…and spent the last 5 years running the whole show. Most of my friends will not want to hear this – Hell, I don’t want to hear/say this…but the R’s have built/cobbled/somewhat bamboozled their coalition in part because they have the bigger tent. There is no perception of them being held hostage by a particular interest group. This doesn’t mean that the R’s do not shameless pander to say Focus on the Family etc…but since ’94 the R’s have been more in the driver seat than the religious right in America. Hell they made a lot of promises to the blue tie supporting cross bearers…what did those folks get in return?
“A fucking religious based something or other” at the behest of one Hot Karl Rove who every day is looking more like the minor character Paul from the show Cheers.
Where are the pro Life D’s? They certainly do not have a seat at the big boy’s table in the National Party…do they?
Every reader of this dumb blog can name at least one relatively famous pro Choice R and several pro embryonic stem cell research R.
No one pro Choice R does not an open tent make, but no voice for pro Life D’s makes for a very skimpy, droning in unison ‘we are on the right side of history on this issue’ and, quite frankly does not bring new people to the show.
Maybe this is not what the election should be about – who’s tent is bigger?
By the way, I don’t think this one will be about that…the 2004 election presidential and otherwise certainly was…and we know what happened there.
So this perception re religion and the D’s – I think CP certainly has it part right. The D’s have a public relations issue, but maybe a bigger problem is that the public perception of liberals these days is their lack of diversity. I love saying that in public. To the extent that you are now angry and may want to call me pathetic (anonymously or otherwise) or say that I have some conservative agenda and part of it is to mock a particular brand of American liberalism…I guess there’s no room for me in your tent.
I’ve been lurking on a former DeKalbite’s blog and his involvement in the politics of the great state of NH. I am proud that someone from back in the day has become a responsible grown up and wants to make his community safe for decent folks to live there and part of that means to get behind the right candidates and help them win.
Fine.
But to the extent that the politically active consider the base of the other party to be “troglodytes” who win because they know whose buttons to push when…that sort of attitude doesn’t bring in new ideas or help people change their minds.
I think I called certain Republican voters mongers of hate or dumbasses willing to follow some awful hatemongery…basically I called them worse than troglodytes.
But I don’t consider myself someone who is directly politically active. My involvement in the public arena begins and ends with the voting booth.
I am not a conservative.
I am not a liberal.
I am a douche bag and with that comes certain luxuries including the ability to make fun of whoever I want.
Those on either side…especially the side that has been losing and losing and losing the last 12 years who will you include to win?
If you win back one or both houses, how big will your tent be? We’ll fucking see.
My liberal friends (and me) can be right about the war, how it was a big fucking mistake and is a big fucking mess…but that’s one issue. Are we saying that’s all that can unite us. We are united in our disdain for this horrific mistake made by g bushy and his brood of vipers? If that’s all we’ve got, don’t you think our common ground will erode rather quickly?
The fact that I sound mean spirited about this doesn’t mean I don’t want to see the D’s possibly get the Congress back. I’m just not optimistic about what it means from there.
This post was supposed to be about the CP interview and religion in America. Let’s see, what the hell else did she say?
Oh yeah:
“But there's reason for alarm at the right-wing intertwining of religion and politics, where the Bible is seen as the prophetic master plan of the universe and where Israel as the Holy Land must be protected at all costs from Muslim infiltration -- duplicating the agenda of the medieval crusades. But to claim, as Democrats often do, that there has always been a separation of church and state in America is misleading: The U.S. simply has no official state religion. The formative influence in our intellectual heritage came from Puritan dissidents in New England. Major universities like Harvard and Yale were founded on religious principles.”
I think this is why our friend from the District was interested in my take on the interview. I’ve gone so far off track let’s see if I can get it together here.
I think everything in the above quote is in some way, wrong.
CP doesn’t see the biggest problem associated with the right wing entanglement with religion and politics has presented either at home or abroad. G bushy and the blue ties think themselves religious men but when it comes to politics they put faith aside rather quickly (if you have laughed at a “Who would Jesus bomb” bumper sticker you already have agreed with me here). They do not understand politics and activists who are not going to sell out their beliefs for the promises associated with modern Western liberal democracy. That shit is precisely why they want to blow themselves up in the first place. The bigger problem re the blue ties and religion is how they have eroded the faith in believers on the domestic front. Unless there is a strain of American religious conservative that has a little Opus Dei in ‘em (not that you sick bastards) and they like self-flagellation (yes that you sick bastards) they might reach a point where they don’t want to keep being burned by these no promise keeping bastards.
On the other side, reminding liberals of the religious nature or appearance of the founding generation, or it being part of some proud American tradition – I don’t think that helps anyone. It might help self-professed atheists who have studied religion and have a great deal of respect for it…
…but I believe serious believers do not have their belief system supported in any way by saying it is a proud part of American tradition. I’m not telling anybody to vote for anybody or anybody to sell all their shit and follow whatever…
In my limited understanding, true Christian faith should always be radical – revolutionary not part of some conservative value system. I don’t mean what KO has been saying either that Christ’s main message was helping the poor either. His main message was a continuation and fulfillment of John the Baptist’s phrase “Repent for the kingdom oof God is at hand.”
Encountering Christ (I think) should have the transformative results it did on the two brothers who were in the middle of burying their father. Remember the Rabbi said “Leave the dead bury their own”
Translation: Let the corpse of your father rot in the sun and follow me while I talk…
…and that that would be the only reasonable choice. That’s radical. That’s revolutionary.
And I’m an idiot I know. As much as I like CP, and think the interview was actually worth the two reads I gave it there is so much more to the story here.
Maybe that’s why our friend the Hollywood D gave a good interview. There were many opportunities for me to take these responses and go elsewhere. I’m sure she can do way more of the same.
If you want the whole interview there’s a link at the home of the DC Liar.
If you want to attack me, that’s fine too. I probably deserve it.
Good night and good luck to us all.